I wouldn’t say defederation is rampant, but there were a few very high profile examples that hit right when people were new. Specifically, Beehaw/LW and Exploding Heads/everyone. Plus the whole thing about NSFW content and types.
While it’s true that many of the original devs have problematic views, it’s not really meaningful. The software is open source, there are tons of new developers (with varying views), and the code has nothing to perpetuate their ideas. In fact, they are pretty isolated on their own instance (Lemmygrad) since everyone defederates them almost immediately.
Worth noting that lemmy.ml is also run by the developers as their general instance (while Lemmygrad is the tankie one). It’s easily forgotten at least for kbin users though, as federation with it has been somewhat broken for a while now.
Besides lemmygrad and explodingheads which are truly legitimate cases, defederation just hurts everyone. New users just expect to sub to the communities they like on reddit. That includes NSFW because that simply is something people want, and it never was an issue on reddit. The whole discussion on larger lemmy is childish and prude.
And about the developers, lemmygrad is largely isolated, but lemmy.ml is not and those same tankies run that. In fact its also the only lemmy instance that blocks all kbin instances via blocking the kbin user-agent. The development is also still largely steered by those tankies.
The NSFW stuff was/is a bit more complicated than it might appear on the surface. A lot of instances do not allow NSFW. No judgement, it is what it is. But people on those instances could sub to NSFW communities elsewhere, primarily LemmyNSFW. Less so now, but for a while it was common for those posts/communities to not be tagged NSFW, which caused them to show up on All for people that didn’t want to see it.
Then there was the question about types of NSFW content. Even people that enjoy your standard porn categories had lines they didn’t want crossed in their feed. Specifically animated/cgi CSAM and scat. The former is illegal in some jurisdictions, and caused a different instance (name withheld) to be widely defederated. The latter was more of an issue with limited tools, but the result was the same- either LemmyNSFW blocks that (at least until better tools are available), or they also get cut off.
I am not even speaking about LemmyNSFW and the discussion around what should be allowed on there and the discussion if they allow CSAM or not. It hit me when my favorite furry focused instance got blocked from feddit.de which was my home on lemmy because it has two mild NSFW communities on there. Nothing illegal, nothing legally questionable. Still de-federated.
Sounds like you joined one of the anti-porn instances. I can’t read German, so I can only guess that the rules say that, but it’s not obvious on Join-Lemmy. I really wish they’d include some meaningful detail on their standards for fed/defend, since that’s what really matters. Instead we have that garbage about matching your values, and each one has a one-liner about who they are.
Assuming they mean the thing with the loli. There was some poll or something about what was allowed, but if I recall, things that were visibly meant to be children was not too well received. They settled on allowing porn of people that looked youngish but not verifiably underage, because the consensus was it could be hard to tell.
Obviously a polarizing issue. One side wants scorched earth on anything under 35, severely limiting half of porn and almost all of Japanese porn. Other side wants to know if it’s logically illegal to date short people now.
Other side wants to know if it’s logically illegal to date short people now.
Bit of a tangent, but I’ve noticed a bit of an over-correction with the age thing. Back in the ‘good’ old days, a grown ass man like 40 year old Seinfeld would date a sixteen year old, and it would be tolerated or accepted. Obviously icky in retrospect and it’s good that it’s now illegal. But now you’ll often read people say online that a 35 year old dating or even being attracted to a 25 year old is a red flag. I mean, it may not be ideal, and age gaps can cause issues (IRC women who date older men are more likely to be abused), but adults finding adults attractive or dating isn’t necessarily creepy.
I do find porn where a petite 20+ actress is clearly pretending to be younger quite problematic though. It’s not so much what they look like, but how they act. Like Piper Perri, the small blonde woman from that meme with her sitting on the couch with the black guys. Looks really young even though she’s 30. As you say, there’s a lot of porn like that.
Obviously even having this discussion and discussing the nuances of it can make you seem really creepy, and as you say make the discussion polarising. A bit like deciding to have a discussion about how to solve Israeli-Palestinian conflict on your first day, no one sensible wants to have it whatever side of the argument they may fall, and I get why many people would not want to see anything even remotely questionable pop up in their feed even if the actors are in their 20s. If only that they don’t want to have to explain why they’re subscribed to that content to their significant other, family or friends.
Child Sexual Abuse Material, basically the current term for child porn. Nepenthe@kbin.social is completely right on all of it. There is a missing detail that loli (along with a few other questionable/objectionable subs) were banned from LemmyNSFW, and went to a different one that promised to be less restrictive, and is widely defederated because of it.
(Side note: While it can be difficult/impossible to draw the line based on appearances, these were clearly and obviously meant to be depictions of children, and often very young children)
While it can be difficult/impossible to draw the line based on appearances, these were clearly and obviously
Ugh. Why am I not surprised?
I think there’s a discussion to be had about questionable porn, like I mentioned in a comment above someone like Piper Perri (of sitting on a couch with black guys behind her meme fame) is nearing thirty. I get that people wouldn’t want something featuring an actress like her in their feed because she looks younger, but I also get why people would find it draconian to ban it as she is an adult woman.
But you can’t really have a nuanced discussion on where to draw the line, and end up having to err on the side of caution, because of the creeps.
Reminds me a bit of discussing free speech or Israel. There are nuances, and the line is blurry, but nuanced discussion is impossible, because before you know it you’re agreeing with someone with a swastika tattoo on his forehead.
You are correct that there’s overlap of users with lemmy.ml, but I don’t see much of the offensive content coming from there. If nothing else, they put their masks on when on that instance. I’m sure there are people on EH with alts elsewhere, but they aren’t given the free reign to cause the same problems.
Lemmy.ml is no longer a recommended instance, and probably won’t be again. But yes, I agree with you that the confusion caused by defederation is a bad thing.
Does some of them being tankies have an effect on the code?
I wouldn’t say defederation is rampant, but there were a few very high profile examples that hit right when people were new. Specifically, Beehaw/LW and Exploding Heads/everyone. Plus the whole thing about NSFW content and types.
While it’s true that many of the original devs have problematic views, it’s not really meaningful. The software is open source, there are tons of new developers (with varying views), and the code has nothing to perpetuate their ideas. In fact, they are pretty isolated on their own instance (Lemmygrad) since everyone defederates them almost immediately.
Worth noting that lemmy.ml is also run by the developers as their general instance (while Lemmygrad is the tankie one). It’s easily forgotten at least for kbin users though, as federation with it has been somewhat broken for a while now.
Besides lemmygrad and explodingheads which are truly legitimate cases, defederation just hurts everyone. New users just expect to sub to the communities they like on reddit. That includes NSFW because that simply is something people want, and it never was an issue on reddit. The whole discussion on larger lemmy is childish and prude.
And about the developers, lemmygrad is largely isolated, but lemmy.ml is not and those same tankies run that. In fact its also the only lemmy instance that blocks all kbin instances via blocking the kbin user-agent. The development is also still largely steered by those tankies.
The NSFW stuff was/is a bit more complicated than it might appear on the surface. A lot of instances do not allow NSFW. No judgement, it is what it is. But people on those instances could sub to NSFW communities elsewhere, primarily LemmyNSFW. Less so now, but for a while it was common for those posts/communities to not be tagged NSFW, which caused them to show up on All for people that didn’t want to see it.
Then there was the question about types of NSFW content. Even people that enjoy your standard porn categories had lines they didn’t want crossed in their feed. Specifically animated/cgi CSAM and scat. The former is illegal in some jurisdictions, and caused a different instance (name withheld) to be widely defederated. The latter was more of an issue with limited tools, but the result was the same- either LemmyNSFW blocks that (at least until better tools are available), or they also get cut off.
I am not even speaking about LemmyNSFW and the discussion around what should be allowed on there and the discussion if they allow CSAM or not. It hit me when my favorite furry focused instance got blocked from feddit.de which was my home on lemmy because it has two mild NSFW communities on there. Nothing illegal, nothing legally questionable. Still de-federated.
Sounds like you joined one of the anti-porn instances. I can’t read German, so I can only guess that the rules say that, but it’s not obvious on Join-Lemmy. I really wish they’d include some meaningful detail on their standards for fed/defend, since that’s what really matters. Instead we have that garbage about matching your values, and each one has a one-liner about who they are.
CSAM?
Assuming they mean the thing with the loli. There was some poll or something about what was allowed, but if I recall, things that were visibly meant to be children was not too well received. They settled on allowing porn of people that looked youngish but not verifiably underage, because the consensus was it could be hard to tell.
Obviously a polarizing issue. One side wants scorched earth on anything under 35, severely limiting half of porn and almost all of Japanese porn. Other side wants to know if it’s logically illegal to date short people now.
Ah, thanks. Google wasn’t helping.
Bit of a tangent, but I’ve noticed a bit of an over-correction with the age thing. Back in the ‘good’ old days, a grown ass man like 40 year old Seinfeld would date a sixteen year old, and it would be tolerated or accepted. Obviously icky in retrospect and it’s good that it’s now illegal. But now you’ll often read people say online that a 35 year old dating or even being attracted to a 25 year old is a red flag. I mean, it may not be ideal, and age gaps can cause issues (IRC women who date older men are more likely to be abused), but adults finding adults attractive or dating isn’t necessarily creepy.
I do find porn where a petite 20+ actress is clearly pretending to be younger quite problematic though. It’s not so much what they look like, but how they act. Like Piper Perri, the small blonde woman from that meme with her sitting on the couch with the black guys. Looks really young even though she’s 30. As you say, there’s a lot of porn like that.
Obviously even having this discussion and discussing the nuances of it can make you seem really creepy, and as you say make the discussion polarising. A bit like deciding to have a discussion about how to solve Israeli-Palestinian conflict on your first day, no one sensible wants to have it whatever side of the argument they may fall, and I get why many people would not want to see anything even remotely questionable pop up in their feed even if the actors are in their 20s. If only that they don’t want to have to explain why they’re subscribed to that content to their significant other, family or friends.
Child Sexual Abuse Material, basically the current term for child porn. Nepenthe@kbin.social is completely right on all of it. There is a missing detail that loli (along with a few other questionable/objectionable subs) were banned from LemmyNSFW, and went to a different one that promised to be less restrictive, and is widely defederated because of it.
(Side note: While it can be difficult/impossible to draw the line based on appearances, these were clearly and obviously meant to be depictions of children, and often very young children)
Ugh. Why am I not surprised?
I think there’s a discussion to be had about questionable porn, like I mentioned in a comment above someone like Piper Perri (of sitting on a couch with black guys behind her meme fame) is nearing thirty. I get that people wouldn’t want something featuring an actress like her in their feed because she looks younger, but I also get why people would find it draconian to ban it as she is an adult woman.
But you can’t really have a nuanced discussion on where to draw the line, and end up having to err on the side of caution, because of the creeps.
Reminds me a bit of discussing free speech or Israel. There are nuances, and the line is blurry, but nuanced discussion is impossible, because before you know it you’re agreeing with someone with a swastika tattoo on his forehead.
You are correct that there’s overlap of users with lemmy.ml, but I don’t see much of the offensive content coming from there. If nothing else, they put their masks on when on that instance. I’m sure there are people on EH with alts elsewhere, but they aren’t given the free reign to cause the same problems.
Lemmy.ml is no longer a recommended instance, and probably won’t be again. But yes, I agree with you that the confusion caused by defederation is a bad thing.
Does some of them being tankies have an effect on the code?