What happened in the vegan community?
I hadn’t heard about any of this until seeing that ToS post.
The long and short of it is, One of the lemmy.world admins demoted a mod of the vegan community over a comment about how cat can be fed a 100% vegan diet with supplements and the cat will be fine.
What an asshole vegan. How stupid can you be to say you love animals and say something as dumb as this
I once gave a vegan friend of mine pause for thought when I pointed out that we probably shouldn’t be keeping pets in the first place if those pets aren’t in their natural habitat doing what their species evolved to do. They had cats.
A good thought, if you are planning to buy one from a breeder! Don’t do that (unless you are a farmer who needs a very specific breed of working dog). By adopting instead, you can ethically have a companion, imo. The animal life already exists, so by giving it a good home, you’re engaging in harm reduction. Don’t forget to slay and neuter those pets!
I have 2 cats but they weren’t born because of me. They’re from a shelter. They can freely roam the woods behind my house and of course they kill a lot of mice (and a few birds).
The other alternatives would be keeping them locked up for life and feeding them cat food from industrialized animal farms, or putting them to sleep. I don’t think those alternatives would be more ethical.So you let your cat out to exterminate local wildlife
And you call keeping them inside away from local wildlife that they can exterminate unethical
yes
My bias is minimal; I don’t practice veganism for myself of my pets.
I think your opinion is completely ignorant. While there isn’t clear scientific evidence that conclude a vegan cat diet is better, there is isn’t clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse. So, is your opinion based in reality or your intuition?
“However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets.”
Domínguez-Oliva, Adriana, et al. “The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review.” Veterinary Sciences, vol. 10, no. 1, Jan. 2023, p. NA. Gale Academic OneFile, dx.doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052. Accessed 29 Aug. 2024.
Naturally, organizations such as the ASPCA tend toward caution and advise against vegan diets, but your statement reaches far beyond that point.
Edit: I recognize my comment is a bit condescending. I do not mean to discourage discussion. I am genuinely curious and encourage your feedback. Please let me know if I’m missing something important here.
deleted by creator
Gish-gallop
Well I understand you point for sure. Mine is just larger than just the diet. If you are so vegan that you would force your diet into.you pet, shoud you have a pet at all?!! Isn’t that captivity?? Why is it better?? And why even have a cat if you know there are other types of pets that are vegan by nature?
If it’s a one in a 1000 cases that the cat was inherit and can’t be rehomed than that cat is too old to adapt into a new diet without being very distressed. So why torture an animal if you are a lover? And if it’s a new animal… well get a turtle or a bird or none, since vegans are against animal exploitation and captivity.
I’m sorry but I get really angry when people come with the “Rules only apply when it suits me” shit
Well I don’t follow any “vegan” practices, so I can’t really help with the motive part. I think we (internet discourse) often put “vegans” in a box that doesn’t really allow for the nuances of individuals. It’s not like there is a doctrine that the “vegan” follow, at least not that I’m aware of. So can you be “vegan” and care for a pet? I don’t know, but I expect different people will give different answers.
Again, you’re making a giant leap to torture. My point was that current scientific consensus is a vegan diet does not necessarily equal torture. So, I’m wondering why you think it does.
the vegan society has a definition of veganism
Nothing excludes the care of pets. It does exclude “animals for food” “as far as is possible and practical”. One could definitely extend this to animals for a pet’s diet, but I’d argue it’s not practical for cats because we don’t yet have solid evidence that says it’s safe. I just don’t think it’s rational to flatly liken it to torture.
If that’s really the vegan philosophy, dont get a cat. Use an animal-free alternative, like a cushion.
some people would argue the keeping of pets is exploitation
what’s wrong with it?
Cats are obligate carnivores. They need meat. A vegan cat is a dead cat.
Cats require a few nutrients which aren’t naturally present in plants, such as taurine. Fortunately, those nutrients are easily synthesised, and added to vegan cat foods in order to make them nutritionally complete.
oh god WHY HAVE A DUCKING CAT?!!! Get a bird or a turtle please!
Look at the research before getting emotional.
While it seems dogs need atleast some meat, the scientific consensus is cats can be healthy with a vegan diet and proper supplementation.
I’m not vegan nor do I have a cat, but this debate interested me and I’ve read a couple literature reviews and big papers on the subject.
Cats aren’t what they were 15’000 years ago. Domestication has turned them into an entirely different species.
My bias is minimal; I don’t practice veganism for myself of my pets.
I think your opinion is completely ignorant. While there isn’t clear scientific evidence that conclude a vegan cat diet is better, there is isn’t clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse. So, is your opinion based in reality or your intuition?
“However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets.”
Domínguez-Oliva, Adriana, et al. “The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review.” Veterinary Sciences, vol. 10, no. 1, Jan. 2023, p. NA. Gale Academic OneFile, dx.doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052. Accessed 29 Aug. 2024.
Naturally, organizations such as the ASPCA tend toward caution and advise against vegan diets, but your statement reaches far beyond that point.
Edit: I recognize my comment is a bit condescending. I do not mean to discourage discussion. I am genuinely curious and encourage your feedback. Please let me know if I’m missing something important here.
sure. but the above post stated with supplements. so if the food is palatable and nutritional to the cat, then what does it matter?
Lol, are you the demoted mod
nope.
Why have an animal to.torture it? Get a parrot of a fish then. Don’t adopt an animal, that can’t understand, and push stupid human values to it. A person that says wants to “protect” animal should respect nature. but you know… vegans are jot the best at logical thinking
if the animal enjoys the food and it has all the nutrition the animal needs then how is it torture?.
Do you also rant at people who keep their cats inside against their will?
I hope the RSPCA, ASPCA, Whatever your countries local equivalent is looks into you with that sort of mindset
You keep making this logical jump that a cat would enjoy eating shitty food with supplements. They would not. A cat would enjoy some chicken.
I don’t think palatable nutritional vegan cat food exists, at least none with any empirical evidence its safe for cats long-term.
but if it did, would you have any objection?
Gish-gallop
A person understands the reason they’re eating only plants with no animal byproducts. An animal doesn’t. An animal is just confused and irritated that their food was changed for the worse by their owner. If their diet and mountain of supplement pills/powders did not actually meet their dietary needs because it wasn’t an exact match for their regular food or natural prey, they would still end up malnourished. And not every cat’s dietary needs are the same or stay the same as they age.
Malnourished or not, you also wouldn’t be able to stop your cat from finding a mouse or insect which snuck into your home and devouring them to enhance their compromised diet. You cannot make a carnivore vegan, you can only abuse them into living in a way they do not naturally live and do not want to live, until they find a way to avoid you for just long enough to go against your wishes and savage another animal, as is their instinctive nature.
Furthermore, do you really think animals have no joy in what they eat, that that’s only a human quality? Nutrition doesn’t matter to the animal, they just want to eat what they want to eat. Cats almost never turn down an offer of cream or milk despite 90% or more of them being lactose intolerant. It’s not nutrients their body needs or can absorb, and actively makes them feel ill. But they want it anyway because it’s tasty and they aren’t able to consider the consequences of their actions as far in advance as humans can.
Edit: In fact, going off that same point but for humans, you could probably make a human live off some kind of tasteless nutrient bar that gives everything you could need, but it wouldn’t mean they’d enjoy it. Oh wait, we did do that before, as a cruel punishment for prisoners in the US, fucking nutraloaf!
and if it was palatable?
You’re still making them do something they didn’t consent to. They will still chew on bugs and small prey animals (when they get access to them, which isn’t often for indoor cats), because it’s etched into their behavior. They will take every opportunity they get. You can’t make a cat vegan, you can only force a cat on a vegan diet. Can’t you understand the qualitative difference there?
What’s wrong with depriving a cat of something it has evolved to need and can die or be in bad health without?
Jesus, stop downvoting someone for asking a question what the fuck is wrong with you people
this is a very emotive issue. apparently cats have to consent to everything. and their life with humans must be 100% natural. otherwise it is animal abuse.
Oh, you were downvoted because people correctly detected a sealion.
potentially. I have no idea what this means.
Cats are obligate carnivores. They have evolved to eat meat and only meat. A vegan diet can and will kill them.
My bias is minimal; I don’t practice veganism for myself of my pets.
I think your opinion is completely ignorant. While there isn’t clear scientific evidence that conclude a vegan cat diet is better, there is isn’t clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse. So, is your opinion based in reality or your intuition?
“However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets.”
Domínguez-Oliva, Adriana, et al. “The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review.” Veterinary Sciences, vol. 10, no. 1, Jan. 2023, p. NA. Gale Academic OneFile, dx.doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052. Accessed 29 Aug. 2024.
Naturally, organizations such as the ASPCA tend toward caution and advise against vegan diets, but your statement reaches far beyond that point.
Edit: I recognize my comment is a bit condescending. I do not mean to discourage discussion. I am genuinely curious and encourage your feedback. Please let me know if I’m missing something important here.
My opinion is based on fact. Alex Whittaker did a great takedown of that study, have an ABC brief
That article basically says what the study says. There is no real evidence that a vegan diet is healthier for cat; they point to owner bias as the cause of any perception that these studies show it is healthier.
My point was that there is no evidence that a vegan diet is impossible for a cat. I wouldn’t try it because we don’t know it’s safe, but we also don’t know that it’s necessarily unsafe. I’m just bothered by people who jump to “vegan diet equals dead/tortured cat” because we don’t have any evidence that supports such a dramatic claim.
Nah mate. You literally said " there is isn’t clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse" and then tried to link to a faulty science study that got debunked.
Vegan diets for cats are notoriously difficult due to the fact it runs completely counter to the diet a cat has evolved to process. If you’re so dedicated to the vegan ideal that you will attempt to force an obligate carnivore - key word obligate - to consume a diet completely contrary to its digestive system then why are you keeping a pet in the first place?
Wtf is happening in the comments. Why are people getting so insane over this topic over and over again? If there’s cat food out there that’s nutritional complete, cats like it, and it happens to be plant based - so what? The only two reasons to object are if someone is 100% convinced such a product doesn’t and cannot exist or if they’re entirely ideological about it. And if we have to apply the naturalistic fallacy that only the natural way can be morally okay, why of all things argue about pet food? I really, really don’t get it why people get so intensely emotional about it.
If only this was readily researchable…
But yeah, animal cruelty gets people het up. This is the internet, don’t fuck with cats
If there’s cat food out there that’s nutritional complete, cats like it, and it happens to be plant based - so what?
Because the vegan cat food that claims to be nutritionally complete isn’t. Whenever these brands have their products studied they turn out to not be nutritionally complete. Feeding them to a cat is abuse.
So they should simply start producing one that is. Problem solved. No law of nature prevents us from supplementing the right amount of taurine and b12, so there is no reason to be irrational about it.
ꓰѕѕеոtіаꓲꓲу tһіѕ tһrеаd соոѕіѕtѕ оf νеցаոѕ tһаt аrе
- ꓖіѕһ-ցаꓲꓲоріոց аոd
- ꓢеа-ꓲіоոіոց
I couldn’t appreciate the visual sea lion anymore.What is gish galloping, which I would also appreciate a visual reference for if available.
Gish galloping is talking over the person you’re arguing with to tire them out and / or interrupt them
Commenting with long text walls asking someone to refute this or that or respond to a series of questions is usually the online equivalent of that
You ever see those comment chains with vеgаns constantly responding to someone until the person they’re responding to gives up, that can be considered Gish-galloping
Obviously with online comments you can’t talk while another person is talking
Is eating lab grown meat vegan?
Not yet. Growing cells in a lab still requires fetal bovine serum which is obviously an animal product. There is work going into replacing it with a synthetic alternative but, to my knowledge, noone has been successful yet.
Based on the post they were spreading misinformation and being really unsightly, calling not vegans things akin to slurs like “meaties” or some shit. I don’t know the full story though.
Vegans have hilarious nicknames, they seem to spend quite a bit of time on it
My favorite is “carnist”, make me feel like a dinosaur.
Vegans do a better job of pissing everyone off about a pretty sensible topic than any community I’ve ever seen
It’s because they don’t actually give a shit about animals, they just want to feel morally superior.
Same as anyone wanting to ban x, y, or z “for the children”.
Same as people who want to stop using a perfectly good term because they think it might be offensive to such-and-such group, despite never actually consulting any members of such-and-such group.
This is an absurd take. Vegans have to sacrifice a lot. I absolutely love animals and it’s insane to me that someone can’t see the amount of torture and murder of animals there is out there.
I decided to cut out, as much as is reasonably possible, anything that was made by or is these animals. I don’t do this because I want to feel superior, I do it for the animals. Most vegans don’t do this for attention. Just because you see some vegans shouting online doesn’t mean we’re all like that.
Yeah, I guess I should clarify that I only meant the terminally online ones
their vitriol is…weird. if they just said “i prefer…” not many would be bothered.
“you’re a murderer.” does tend to ruffle feathers.
Forreal, longtime vegan here… Vegans (online mostly) annoy me more than most people. I swear we aren’t all jerks! I’m probably a major sell out, I don’t even have a problem with hunters.
Honestly as a linux nerd sometimes I feel like us open source folks have a similar problem
You do a bunch of work and make sacrifices to accomplish living in a way you feel proud of! Wonderful! And then you turn around and antagonize people who don’t invest all their time and energy in the issue that you personally really connect with…! Oh… Wonderful… 🙃
Almost like ruffling feathers is the point when you truly believe most people are being murderers. You don’t change society by being polite.
Activism isn’t about being polite as much as effecting change, which vegans are doing the opposite of through much of their online presence.
Lots of activists change society by passing legislation, organizing political action and peaceful protests.
Irritating other people with half-baked personal invective won’t get you anywhere productive.
