Is this the official Mozilla connect survey? I believe the question order and groupings were randomized, and that may have been a (IMO bad) control question.

The subtle ways having a toxic community affects unconscious design decisions. It’s a message.

…joking, to be clear. Could be a raindrop.

I believe that’s incorrect. The reporter who started this rumor either misunderstood the meaning of the chart or was lying through his teeth. I’ll find the original source and share it here later.

Linux Foundation Report.

This is the actual source. If you simply scroll through it, you’ll see they’re investing in many things that move the Linux ecosystem forward. Open standards, open hardware, security in the software stack, providing for latest market needs, keeping an eye on legislation that could affect Linux, staying in touch with important entities in the industry, and so on.

Scroll down near the bottom and you’ll find where the reporter got their information from. It’s an expenditure chart and, sure enough, it says “Linux Kernel Support 2%” Note, however, that it also says:

• Community Tooling 5%
• Training and Certifications 7%
• Project Infrastructure 9%
• Project Support 64% (!)

Note that it doesn’t say how any of them is further divided. Remember all the things I mentioned earlier? All of that is value for Linux as a whole.

Software projects aren’t just about programming the big thing. Working on a large project will show you this. Could the foundation spend more on Linux? Maybe. But saying they only spend 2% on it is disingenuous.

The reporter doesn’t mention this in his clickbait piece, either because he doesn’t get it in the first place, or more likely because he just wants to push his views.

This is yet another example why Lunduke isn’t a credible source of news.

On the other hand, an isolated community can also become a nasty brewing pot, reinforcing harmful behaviors and even intensifying them over time.

I don’t think calling them safe spaces for hateful assholes is accurate, but I understand frustrations with them.

There’s at least one interesting fellow in this very thread sharing extremely predictable opinions.

I thought I was annoying when arguing. Still do, but I found someone worse. Doesn’t make me feel better, because it seems I’m sharing a table with them.

Hey, I got curious and decided to take a look at how things are going.

Currently, there’s a big meta issue on Bugzilla (1907090) with dozens of sub-issues tracking development of tab grouping on desktop, and they’re actively being worked on right now. Seems like there’s simply a lot of work to be done, especially of the invisible sort, before we get the feature proper. But things are progressing nonetheless!

So I’d say there’s no need to join the crowd asking that on every other announcement… but that’s just what I think. Hopefully this was helpful :^)

I think I agree with the major point of the article, that many gaming journalists… don’t do a great job. At all. Many seem to outright hate the communities they serve, which can’t be healthy for either side.

But it certainly wasn’t this article that convinced me. It’s needlessly hostile, contains personal attacks and petty insults, and despite its many claims and assumptions about Deadlock, gaming companies, journalists and gamers, it has only 4 outgoing links—one of them, bizarrely, simply to x.com—and nothing else. Screenshots? More supporting evidence? Have a useless picture of Valve’s office, I guess.

One of the linked resources is a tweet:

bye Twitter Quoted tweet: “Where to find Verge staff on Mastodon https://theverge.com/23519135/mastodon…”

Why does the author think this is relevant?

Their Twitter account links to a Mastodon address, a throwback to when Elon Musk bought the website and the journos had a hissy fit because they could no longer backchannel to have accounts banned for telling them to “learn to code.”

Wow, that’s why you think people were complaining? Nothing else, no other possible undesirable consequence arising from Musk’s takeover of Twitter? Not even his influence in levels and management of hate speech and misinformation in the platform?

Indeed, the majority of his last month’s output on Twitter – now X.com – is whining about Musk and bizarrely saying “bye Twitter” despite The Verge still being very much active on the site. It’s all so tiresomely typical.

It’s actually quite common for organizations that give mastodon a chance to keep their Twitter account as well. It’s the sad reality that most people (many of their following) will stay on Twitter. See Mozilla for another example, they host their own instance, even, but that sadly doesn’t mean they can throw away Twitter.

So the journalist in question shows support for mastodon, both by mentioning their account and bringing attention to the fact that The Verge is also joining, and this is your reaction? If you know why this happens, it’s misleading, and if you don’t, then it’s a failure in reporting. Both are bad and make me hesitant to believe anything else you say.

By the way, I’m curious about your choice of platform. I wonder what factors led to you picking nazi central as your center of operations. I’m not claiming you’re a Nazi, it’s just… you’re sitting at the table with them, you know?

The answer is games journalism, maybe journalism in general, has become a largely self-serving practice where nothing matters except appearing smarter than the audience you’re supposed to serve.

Well said, Richard. Definitely got that feeling just now.

And to people thinking The Verge sucks completely: don’t generalize publishers like this, please! You should be critical, aware of their leanings and biases, but remember that they’re still an organization hosting multiple writers with different skills too. The Verge has some solid reporting, like when they showed how SEO ruined the web. They also have some utterly shameful moments—let us never forget The Verge PC—just like most other media.

Hey, I agree that MV3 brings benefits (such as better security for the extension ecosystem) and has technical merit, but it’s worth noting that uBlock’s main dev themselves said it won’t work as well. uBO Lite doesn’t work fine, it works. It’s also worse.

And the same fundamental issue that affects ublock (the new API limits) affects everyone else trying to do the same job using extensions.

The more I see how people use downvotes, the less I like them as a feature in general. I don’t downvote things anymore.

• Everyone can upvote, which already brings the most popular content to the top. Why does the system need another dimension to it?
  • I often see unpopular comments at the bottom, with scores like +2 -9… The absence of downvotes wouldn’t make a difference in content ordering, because the previous comment is simply +4.
• If I disagree with someone enough to act on it, it’s my rule to explain why. A minus one is nearly useless as feedback.
  • Then, once I’ve replied, what’s the point of downvoting? Everyone can read my thoughts.
  • Replies can be upvoted too, for people who think truth comes down to a battle of internet points.
• If I honestly believe something is bad or harmful to the community, it should probably be reported, not (merely) downvoted.

Downvotes as they are seem like outdated design on the human interaction level. They fail to iterate on years of knowledge gained since their inception.

Keep in mind that Opera is a shady company. Please avoid their products if you’re able and willing.

You should not use anything from Opera. The company is chasing trends, and its most successful ventures in recent history have been ripping off poor people in developing countries and marketing to gamers with a meme social media account. The company’s failed experiments have been abandoned without directly informing users, leaving them at increased risk of security problems.

everyone ever just saying “it is not possible”,

I’ve definitely seen people saying they’ll fail, with no arguments to back that up, and I stand with you against that kind of baseless speculation. But it’s worth noting there are many folks bringing up thought-out technical disagreements with the project’s decisions. Some may be more opinionated than others, but that’s life.

finding some random comments from project founder to hate.

If you’re referring to what I think you are, that’s not it. People aren’t chasing after random comments because they want to throw shit at Ladybird. It’s called criticism. Criticism, if valid, is not the same as hate, and portraying people who bring up Andreas’ actions—possibly those of most important person in the project—as one-dimensional haters is disingenuous.

But you know what? You and your opinion is not important. People are not doing this to make Linux competitor or Mozzila competitor but to have fun and learn something new.

But they’re not? Ladybird has a fully-fledged US 501©(3) non-profit with clear ideals, a roadmap and even sponsors that have pledged over one million USD in funding combined (see Chris Wanstrath’s post).

Haters gonna hate, I wish them luck. Failing is ok too.

Yes, that’s true. Please don’t disregard people offering valid criticism, though.

Where did you read me state he’s a fascist, when I literally said the opposite?

I genuinely don’t think he’s on Twitter because he’s a “weird fascist tech bro”

And I explained, in depth, why we can’t simply reduce who someone is to their words. You need to look at their actions. Saying “look at his sweet message! How can anyone think ill of him?” is not the argument you think it is. From history books to modern media, we know countless people whose words are nice, when their actions are anything but.

they can only interpret people that are not “with” them as “against” them.

And to clarify “with” above means “shares my extreme views and expectations”.

Can you tell me exactly which extreme views and expectations I expressed?

I’ll be blunt, it doesn’t look like you bothered to read my entire comment before replying.

P.S. Twitter uses their own set of emoji that are actually images instead of Unicode, and it seems you pasted the image in your comment. I suggest replacing it for 🤓 or removing it, because it’s likely oversized in some Lemmy UIs.

That’s actually interesting, I learned something new today.

cross-platform CLI and server

Will Ladybird compete against lynx? …No? I tried. Jokes aside, I don’t see why that’d matter much for end-users.

It looks to me like Apple wants Swift on Linux, but that might simply be because they understand you can’t run away from Linux when dealing with servers. That’s not necessarily the same as wanting to create a cross-platform (read: greater than Apple and Linux) ecosystem.

I don’t think I’m really making any of those points in isolation, but I think probably the first.

Well, I’m off to a great start! Ha ha… This is why I ask. I assumed you’d bring up at least two, but if I couldn’t even get that right, then I clearly wasn’t reading your comment in the intended spirit. I was confident there was more to it.

For what it’s worth, I completely agree with you on the following, (sadly) down to the Teams mention:

It’s possible to acknowledge that I don’t agree with the views of the devs while using their software, but it does create a kind of tension that I would avoid if a viable alternative existed.

Similarly, I prefer open source software and will always seek it out and when comparing alternatives I heavily weight open source as an advantage. That said, I do still use some microsoft software (notably microsoft teams) for a variety of reasons.

The only thing I’m unsure about is this:

The views of devs are relevant to my decision whether or not to use whatever software, but they’re not solely determinant.

I believe it strongly depends on which views we’re talking about. The problem is that while certain disagreements can be harmlessly put aside, and you may even work together with these people, at some point you’ll find views that are harmful themselves. Maybe they don’t hurt you directly, but they can hurt others.

Using software and engaging in communities of developers with harmful views means platforming those views, even when you disagree. You’re telling developers, “It’s fine to hurt others if you’re good at writing software.” You’re telling people it’s okay for them to hurt others too, because if respected devs are allowed to, then why shouldn’t they?

For a rather extreme example, Hyprland’s project lead is on record saying he could be swayed on genocide. Mind you, this is not the only issue with the project. Vaxry has been banned from the freedesktop mailing list, because they’re not interested in platforming toxicity. Many have ditched Hyprland (and Vaxry) altogether, even though it’s an impressive project in terms of technical achievements.

I’m not blaming unaware users, it happens! The problem is when you become aware of an issue, and you don’t speak out, don’t take any action, don’t support the ones being hurt. I’m not trying to order anyone to do all of those, but too many don’t do a single one and are seemingly against others putting in the work.

Look at the downvotes on my top comment: why should an attempt at informing people have its visibility lowered? They were not as kind as you to reply. Not claiming you downvoted me—nor would I mind if you did—but a -1 is hardly useful feedback to me, is it?

If I had known the full extent of Lemmy devs’ views from the start, I’m not sure I’d have joined. For most projects, once you’re in, it’s harder to leave than it would’ve been to avoid. The cost of switching isn’t a shackle, but is certainly a deterrent. This is why I try to be careful about which projects I allow myself to support.

Point being, some views are absolutely solely determining factors in me not using the software.

And again, Lemmy and Ladybird aren’t comparable in this discussion due to the fundamentally different nature of the projects and the ways in which people interact with them. I’m willing to elaborate on this, if anyone actually wants that, but this comment is long enough already.

I got that, but what point were you trying to make, exactly?

For example, the following are possible non-exclusive interpretations to my perspective:

• It’s possible to use Ladybird without agreeing with Andreas’ views.
• It’s possible to use any software without agreeing with developers’ views.
• It’s possible to use Ladybird without supporting Andreas’ views.
• It’s possible to use any software without supporting developers’ views.
• It’s unnecessary to bring up Andreas’ views when discussing Ladybird.
• It’s unnecessary to bring up developers’ views when discussing any software.

These may be similar and/or related, but are not the same, and so I would answer them differently.

Your comment convinced me to finally take a look at his profile and see what the fuss is about.

I didn’t see anything that’d make me scream fascism, either.

But there’s definitely stuff that’s off. Things that, in isolation, would be one thing, but when you analyze them all together, it wouldn’t be weird to say there’s a pattern. A picture starts to form, and it’s one that I’ve sadly seen many times before.

So I went back and grabbed a few tweets:

• Andreas’ take on… political leanings of contributors?
  • Spoiler: he thinks the left doesn’t contribute, apparently, and I have no idea how he measured lurkers.
• Andreas is, according to himself, something like a centrist?
  • What does he consider a “purity test” from either side?
• See this measurement of his political leanings. Rest assured, he shared it in jest.
  • Did you know the internet makes fun of these tests because it only takes a few progressive choices to throw you so far left, you’d think only through decidedly unwholesome picks it’d be possible to hit the right side?
• Andreas believes Twitter is full of positive energy.
  • I thought this was funny, because everyone I know—especially Twitter users—claim it’s become a far-right infested cesspit.
• Andreas’ neutral take and isolated opinion on pronouns in the office
  • The most liked reply: “[…] a red flag indicating that it is a woke workplace. […]” Many such followers. This is his bubble. Very positive.
• Andreas’ reaction to someone who didn’t like what they saw in a GH issue.
  • Multiple times now, when this issue was mentioned, I’ve seen people bring up how old it is. The age is irrelevant if he clearly still thinks the same. I stand by Lea’s arguments here, and seeing him double down and fail to understand the problem is worrying.

I barely had to scroll to find these, they’re all recent. There’s much more.

Individually, you could dismiss everything. It’s just humor. He’s neutral. Objective. Wholesome. But then, why does he keep hitting the same keys? You’d assume a wholesome centrist would have a little more variety in their stand-up routine.

You know what he reminds me of, after reading so many of his tweets?

People who dress up in a veneer of positivity, but you ask them what they think is negative, and they’ll say things like raising awareness of LGBT issues. Not in those words, of course, because that’s not positive. When they talk about it, they’ll put on this show about how they don’t take sides, and how they’re simply worried about the technical discussion, the actually important stuff, you know? They simply don’t like unhelpful noise, things like trying to foster an inclusive community.

It’s easy to seem like a positive figure when you never properly acknowledge any criticism. Position yourself as a factual, neutral voice of objectivity, even when that’s literally impossible. Paint those who disagree as non-contributing, unproductive, negative noise-makers. Say you agree with people on topics they care about, but then turn around and tell them they’re all doing it wrong. Cover it all up in emoji and a “Let’s do it together!” attitude, but reject anyone who reaches out with the wrong greeting.

And there you have it, Andreas reads like a man who’s either lying to himself or to others, and I don’t know which is worse.

I went into this thinking, “I have to avoid baselessly criticizing people. There’s surely nuance to this man’s real beliefs, people on the internet are too quick to attack without evidence.” Which is why I’m honestly surprised to say that I came out with a mildly worse opinion of Andreas than when I started. What the hell.

I sincerely hope he can reflect on his behavior and grow out of this strange mindset. Andreas seems to be a great software developer and Ladybird can be an enormous boon for the web, so it hurts to see him acting this way.

Again, I genuinely don’t think he’s on Twitter because he’s a “weird fascist tech bro” who likes a fascist platform (what is even meant by weird?). I find it more probable that he’s comfortable there, realizes that it’s not going anywhere, that it remains the most popular platform, and therefore doesn’t think Mastodon is worth the effort.

Why he’s so comfortable there and doesn’t like Mastodon is worth thinking about, though.

https://lemmy.ml/post/19080982/12955657

What do you want me to read here? I only saw three comments unrelated to anything I said.

I feel like Linus has said much worse things, without much remorse (the attacks didn’t stop after he apologized), for many many years,

Linus had a problem with criticizing people’s work respectfully. Rather, he’d straight up insult people, with little to no useful feedback, and people very much complained about it. Maintainers complained. It got to the point that he, thankfully, committed to taking a break from the kernel to work on improving himself. It wasn’t just an apology. He has since gotten much better. When he regresses, it’s entirely fair to criticize it.

but I have never seen anyone boycott Linux solely because of his attitude…

Then you’ll be happy to discover that many people working on Linux were quite public about their disapproval of Linus’ behavior back then. With him, with others, it was their complaints that got him to change.

I think most people do not consider the Ladybird drama to be a big deal, it seems only a small vocal minority really care about it.

Maybe. But it’s not about the size of the group, it’s about the complaints themselves. We don’t decide whether something is an issue worth caring about based on how many people think so. That’d be horrible. Racism was once the issue of a vocal minority; thank goodness people didn’t shut up about it and more eventually listened.

Andreas’ behavior reflects poorly on the project as a whole and ought to change. It pushes away folks who could be part of the community and helping the project, be it as users, developers or financial supporters. My comments aren’t intended to incentivize boycotting Ladybird because I don’t like the man, they’re meant to raise awareness of a serious issue in the hopes that, one day, perhaps he’ll grow up like Linus did.

I’d never mention this out of the blue, but since you brought up Linus, here’s my unnecessary fun opinion. I’d bet money that Andreas’ takes on inclusivity wouldn’t be appreciated by Linus, because the man’s one deranged step away from calling pronouns woke.

My idiology diverges significantly from the lemmy devs, but here we are.

Would you be willing to elaborate on why that’s relevant here? As in, what do you mean by this?

Because Lemmy and Ladybird are wildly different projects, tackling completely different issues, and consequently users interact with them and their developers in very different ways. To put it a little bluntly, I think that observation sounds insightful, but it’s just silly when you dig deeper. I’d rather not waste time writing entire paragraphs based on an assumption of what you meant, though.

And I don’t know about you, but I’m keeping my eye on Sublinks. I appreciate Lemmy as a piece of software, but it doesn’t have my undying loyalty merely because I created an account on it, nor are it and its developers immune to my criticism just because I use it.

Edit: I’m worried that I might’ve been rude in my first 2 paragraphs. Sorry if it came across that way. To clear things up: I’m genuinely asking what’s the idea behind your comment, because I could see it being several things and I don’t want to have to answer all of them, or risk answering the wrong one.

I know some folks think this is annoying, but once again, note that if you’re the kind of user who shuns Brave because the CEO does stupid shit every once in a while, you’ll probably not look fondly upon Ladybird’s project lead and main developer being scared of pronouns.

See this issue on github.

If you don’t care about that, it’s an interesting project. Can’t say I approve, though.

Posting this to inform people and let each one decide what to do on their own. Don’t harass anyone, please.

For comparison, Mozilla is on Twitter as well, but they’re also on mastodon and even went as far as deciding to host their own instance.